CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Since there were so many, you will have to tell me ... at what times
do you want to know about ... at what age ...

WAYNE MORRIS:

Maybe you could go chronologically ... what kind of experiments were
they doing at the start, and who was involved, and if you knew what
the different projects were at the time ...

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Okay. Like I told you before, when I was 8 years old I was told I was
going to be tested to see if I could participate or take part in this
big project. They kept calling the project ... and it was for the 
President of the United States and it was to help stop communism and
it sounded very exciting ... so these people ... I was told they were
doctors ... and these important people were going to come from all
over the country to test me. I mainly was at Tulane for the tests.
Some of the tests were -- personality tests. It was mostly men who
were involved. There was one women I remember distinctly, Phyllis
Greenacre, she was from a place called Cornell. I didn't even know
that was a school at the time, I just remembered the word "Cornell"
But the rest of them were men, and they would say "Call me Uncle ...
(so and so) "  So Uncle John came from Oklahoma and tested me for
personality. He had names for different types of tests but basically
he was testing to see how my personality ... who I would fit in with
best ... who I would get along with the best.  I think they already
an idea of what they wanted to use me for but they had to see specifically
what I would be most useful ... how I could help the projects the most.
He tested me and said I got along best with older men ... "daddies" or
"uncles". That's what I was looking for -- affection from older men.
In my own life my adoptive mother was so dominant, and horrible and scary and
my adoptive father was sickly and very weak, never stood up to my mother,
knew what was going on, never stopped it. Here I was looking for this
strong man to come along and save me. So, his name was Uncle John and
he was also known as "the Gittinger Man". I had to remember these
people by characteristics they had, by the clothes they wore, or by
maybe something they talked about, omething odd about them -- because
there were so many people coming and going in my life it would have
been impossible just to remember names and put faces with them and
where they from ... so I would call them by different nicknames. John
Gittinger was the "Goatee Man". I told him he had a funny looking beard
and he said it's called a 'goatee'. It was the first time I had ever
heard that expression.  Then there was Uncle Sid who was Gottlieb. I
called him the man with the pebble in his shoe because he walked funny,
he had a limp. 

Gittinger was mainly just talking to me, trying to get an idea of what
I was like, was I obedient. They would test me for memory, and of course
I had a very good memory and that was important. They did IQ tests, and
I mentioned Phyllis Greenacre before. She tested me for sexual type
things, how I responded sexually. She determined that I did not respond
well to women because of my experiences with my mother. I hated women
touching me, examining me but it wasn't so bad with men because obviously
women reminded me of my mother. Phyllis Greenacre reminded me of my
mother so I couldn't stand her. I heard them talking, I was sitting in
the room and they would talk about what they had found, as if I wasn't
even there. I guess I wasn't supposed to understand a word. I was only
8 years old. They figured I wouldn't know what they were talking about.
They didn't bother to take me out of the room. She said that I would
respond to older men and I responded quickly to physical stimulation,
and they would actually [sexually] stimulate you in different ways to 
see what would happen. 

They actually had machines with wires and tubes coming out of them and
they would insert them inside of you and then they would stimulate you
and they would give you a score on how you responded in terms of how
much. It sounds really weird.

WAYNE MORRIS:

This was all done when you were around eight years old ...

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

For a whole year I was brought back and forth to Tulane and tested for
all sorts of things. To see how easily I was hypnotized and there were
several people who tested me for that -- Martin Orne -- I called him
"The Orne Man" and "The Weasel". He reminded me of a weasel, his eyes
were ... He was very scary though. He hypnotized me and said I hypnotized
easily and rapidly -- they could "induce me rapidly" is what they called
it. I think that was the main criteria. You had to have a certain IQ,
you had to have a good to excellent memory, you had to be able to be
hypnotized easily and quickly, you had to be able to dissociate. The
imaginary friends -- they were very pleased to hear that I had imaginary
friends inside, that I called "The Annies". You had to respond well to
people and be obedient. And I was. I had always been taught -- there
wasn't any other way to behave in my world. If you weren't obedient
you got hurt. My mother taught me that. I always listened to grownups
and did what they told me no matter how odd it seemed or how bad it
seemed. It would be something really bad to do like take all your clothes
off. I didn't argue. I just did it because the consequences were bad.
Those were the kinds of tests ...

WAYNE MORRIS:

Why do you think those were the kind of factors they were looking for
within you? What did they hope to achieve by doing these things to you, in
your opiniion?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Looking back -- of course at the time I had no idea -- and even a year
later when I was sent off to a training camp in Maryland, I didn't really
understand. But now looking back I know they were looking for someone
to use in sexual entrapment, blackmail. That's what they were going to
use me for. They needed someone that responded well to strangers, to
men, and who had a good memory because I would be taught at this camp
how to coerce people into giving a lot of information about themselves.
Obviously they are talking to a child. They are doing something sexual
that they aren't supposed to be doing, and they are not really conscious
about what they are talking about. You know they give away a lot of
information about themselves or their jobs and if you know the right
questions to ask, you can get them to talk just about anything about
themselves. Uncle Richard used to tell me it is amazing what people
will admit when they are in the presence of a young girl. They are not
even thinking about the stuff they are saying. What they would do ...
I was told I had passed all the tests, and the next summer I was going
to be sent to this camp. And I thought, oh no, camp. That's bad. But
they said this was a really nice camp, and it was in Maryland, and
they asked my Mom for permission to send me away and of course she
signed the papers and she didn't even ask about it. I was taken on
a train to a place called Deep Creek Lodge in Maryland. It was
beautiful. It was all surrounded by water. To me it was Disneyland
only I didn't know about Disneyland then, but that's just what I
would compare it to. There was great food, people didn't hurt you in
the same way I was used to being hurt. They treated you like you were
important, like you were special and I was told I was going to learn
how to sexually please men. I was nine years old. I didn't know what
sexually please men meant, but I just knew that if I was good, and 
behaved myself I could stay. I stayed for three weeks. It was probably
the best three weeks of my life up to that point.

There were other children there as young as five or six years old. Children
younger than myself. There were young women there ... teenagers ... all
different ages, and some boys too. The first couple of days we kind of
saw each other, and after that you were pretty much alone with one person.
You were paired up with an adult and you stayed with them for three weeks
in a cabin, like a resort cabin. I was told later by one of the experts
that this place was a CIA training ground and also a place where people
could just get away, take vacations. It was free if you were in the CIA.
It was also very isolated. It was on like an island ... it was hard to
get to, it was very private. Anyhow my day consisted of being with this
man called "Uncle Otto", that's what he told me to call him and he was
a doctor and he was from Kansas. I got to choose what name I wanted to
use and I chose Ava after Ava Gardner because I loved movie stars.
We spent the day going to the pool or just staying in the room playing
games that he taught me. Most of the time I didn't have any clothes on.
Most of the time he didn't have any clothes on. But after a while you
just learned to ignore that kind of stuff. You weren't embarassed anymore.
And it was only one person. It wasn't like you had to go in front of
all these strangers with no clothes on, so that was an improvement.
You weren't really doing any horrible things where people were screaming,
where there was blood.  He was of course molesting me, but he didn't
actually rape me so it wasn't physically painful in that sense. Everything
was kind of an improvement over what I was used to and this was a
vacation.

In the evening, after about a week there, Uncle Otto had taught me
different things to sexually please men just like they said I was
going to. And I thought they were yucky and I didn't like doing it
but I thought well this is what I have to do to not be hurt and to
be treated nice and get good food and not starve because my mother
would starve me sometimes when we went to camp. Sometimes all you had
to eat was an orange or something. I mean that's something they would
give you. This was definitely an improvement. I thought if I have to
do this yucky stuff well then I am going to do it. Of course different
shadows or alters would come out and help me, so that I didn't always
have to do it. After the first week, other people started coming in,
other men, and what they would do is put me in a room with them. I
would have to do whatever they wanted, but it wasn't violent, you know.
They were mostly kind of molesting me, kind of thing. Or I would do
something to them, and I knew it was being filmed. They showed me about
the camera behind the mirror and I had to get them to talk about
themselves. Afterwards I would go in this room and there would be
the "Gottlieb Man", the "Man with a Pebble in His Shoe", a man named "Morgan
Hall" who was really Captain White. Morse Allen, the "Morse Man, and
Uncle Otto. Sometimes there would be other people there. They would ask
me to describe the person, to repeat everything he had said to me, just
pretty much to remember everything I could about the incident, and then
they would show the film they had taken and see how well I had remembered
and tell me how well I did, or if I forgot something important it was
pointed out to me, or if there was something I could have done better,
like getting him to talk about his family more.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Did you get the sense that these other men knew about the camera behind
the mirror?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Oh yeah, they all knew, because first I would talk about it and then
they would show the film that had been taken that day.

WAYNE MORRIS:

But the actual men who were in the room ...

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Oh no, no. I don't think they did. I don't know who they were ... soldiers
maybe ... I don't know. People they flew in to be subjects, I don't know
who they were. No. I doubt seriously that they knew about the camera.
They didn't act like they knew.

WAYNE MORRIS:

So you believe that the experimentation that was done with you was for
purposes of using you in sexual blackmail or entrapment?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Definitely. But as I got older, I was told they were going to be using
me "out in the field". But I had to be a certain age because they couldn't
send a nine year old or even a ten year old to a hotel room with a man,
it would be a little bit too much I guess, so they had to wait until I
got to be more like twelve or thirteen when they really started using
me. But they told me that's what they were doing. They were going to
get these people on the film ... Captain White told me. He was in charge
of taking the film. I called him the "Martini Man" because he drank
martinis all the time and he carried a gun, and he said he was a policeman
at one time. He told me what they were doing -- taking pictures of the
men with me because they were doing something they weren't supposed to
be doing. And of course I knew that. I knew it was wrong. They had
wives at home, and children, and they wouldn't want their wives 
to know what they did, they wouldn't want the people they worked with
to know that they were talking about their job. That's why I had to get
them talking about what they did, what kind of stuff they did, describe
their families, ask them about money. I knew that whatever these people
were telling me and doing to me was going to be used against them. And
when I got a little older, there started to be a lot of politicians,
people in the CIA -- I don't know how they didn't know they were being
filmed because they knew about those projects, but for some reason --
I guess because it was a different hotel or a different place, they
thought they were getting away with it, that nobody was watching them.
So just about everybody got filmed ...

WAYNE MORRIS:

You are saying that other CIA personnel were filmed with you as well
with you?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Yeah. Just about everybody was filmed except Martin Orne, he was the
only one who wasn't about to be caught. He made sure that he never got
on film, at least that I know of. They may have gotten him with someone
else, they didn't get him with me.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Did you get a sense of what they were using these films specifically for
against these people?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

They said it was for money and to keep the projects going, but the most
important thing was that the President wanted these projects going and
that they had to get the money because the CIA couldn't afford to pay for
it, so other people had to pay for it and didn't I want to keep helping
the President? Of course I said yeah. Well, he needs money from these
people.  Sometimes the people decide that they don't want to give money
anymore, so if we have the films, and they don't want anyone to know what
they did on the films, then they are going to give money. So they pretty
much explained to me what they were using me for. Then there were doctors
that, people that had foundations behind their names, so-and-so Foundation
and like -- there was a doctor -- there were a lot of people named "Charles"
for some reason. There was a Dr. Charles Geshecker or something like that
and he had a foundation or something -- and he was one of the people I
got filmed with.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Geschickter Foundation, was that the name?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Yeah. His name was Charles and he was a doctor. He was one of those people
who had a lot of money, I was told ...

WAYNE MORRIS:

So these people who were filmed were in some ways involved in funding
these projects, or were coerced into funding?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Some of them were. I think they were afraid they would talk about the
projects, and so they had to use something to keep them quiet. For
instance, there was a guy named Church -- all I knew was, he would try,
he was very important to them because he was going to convince other
people to let the projects keep going and so they had to get something
on this guy, Church. This was later, when I was in high school. Supposedly
he ended up talking other people into letting the projects keep going.
He was supposed to be investigating - to see if there was anything
wrong being done by the CIA - and so he of course decided nothing wrong
was being done because they had a film on him.

WAYNE MORRIS:

So you got the sense that this man, Church, was a politician in some
way?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

I know some of them were politicians because they had Senator in front
of their name. I don't know if he was a Senator, I just know he was
Frank Church. He was on some committee that was supposed to be checking
on the CIA to see if what they were doing was wrong, or illegal, or
something. They said he was going to decide in favour of the CIA 
because they were going to tell him the film would show up somewhere
if he didn't. Apparently it worked, because they kept going. There
was a Senator from Louisiana that I was with a couple of times. He
was kind of old, but apparently he was on one of the committees that
was checking up on the CIA. They were always being checked on ... that's
what they told me. People were always trying to find something bad
about them to stop the projects and shut them down and they had to keep
going, and if it meant hurting a few people, then that's what they had
to do.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Do you have a sense of how often you were used for this kind of 
entrapment or coercion?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Well ... there were certain years that I was used a lot. When I was 13
and 14 - I would say at least a couple of times a month. There were
times when they would have me for two or three weeks, you know. I
would go every day ... so ... or they would take me out of town someplace.
I would go in these little planes and go to different military bases,
sometimes there were houses. I went to Texas a lot. I went to Maryland
a lot. There was a lot during the years 1963-64 and then, like before
I graduated from high school, 1966-67, they used me a lot. And then
in 1972 when I was getting ready to graduate from college they got
a hold of me for several times for a couple of weeks. It was pretty
much ... I could expect it every August because a lot of people would
come to New Orleans in August and May for some convention or something.
There would always be a lot of doctors in town and ... I knew I was
going to have to go some place. But I didn't know in between, because
obviously I would forget, because they would always make sure that I
forgot before they sent me home. They had to do that, because I couldn't
go home remembering that I had just been with Senator Long or somebody
like that ... you know, they had to make sure I had amnesia so they
gave me amnesia barriers in between.

WAYNE MORRIS:

And how would they do that?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Ah. Shock treatments.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Electricity ...

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Electricity. Yeah. That causes amnesia for recent events. So I would
have to go back to Tulane and sit in this chair, it was like a dentist's
chair and they had figured out just how much electricity it took to
cause my amnesia, or to make it last. There was a man from Canada who
spoke with a funny accent and always called me "Lassie" and I always
thought, "why is he calling me a dog?" I always thought he was calling
me "Lassie" the collie from tv. He was the one who came in and figured
out how much electricity it would take, and he was kind of an expert on
it.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Do you remember this person's name?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

I called him the "Camera Man" because his last name sounded like Camera Man.
He was good friends with the "Dull Men", the Dulles Men. There were two 
of them and he was good friend of one of them, and he
was a doctor and he had saved another man's son. There was a story that he
was a story like he was a hero to this "Dull Man" because he had saved his
son from something ... he worked for an Institute that was named after one
of the "Dull Men". There was one that I never met but heard about. I knew
the one Dull Man, called John but I didn't know his brother, I just heard
about him. I guess it was Dulles.

WAYNE MORRIS:

That would have been John Foster Dulles ...

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

There were a lot of people I didn't ... I never really heard their real
names ... but after a while the people who researched all this would say
"well obviously you are talking about John Dulles ..." and I would say,
"welll who's that?" because I have never been really big on names. I
have always stayed away from anything that had anything to do with
politics, watching the news. I have always had an aversion to that. Never
knew why until now. Now I know why. So I made a point of not knowing
anything about politics or politicians. These names meant nothing to me
until people started telling me who they were.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Did you remember the actual name of the person you are describing as the
"Camera Man"?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

I was told after I described what he looked like and that his last name
sounded like camera man and that he talked with an accent that he was
Dr. Ewen Cameron from Canada.

WAYNE MORRIS:

And what was Dr. Cameron specifically involved in?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Electricity.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Just the electricity?