MIND CONTROL SERIES
Ryerson CKLN FM 88 Radio (Toronto) - INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION, Producer,
Wayne Morris
12th tape in a series of broadcasts (1997)

WAYNE MORRIS:  Good morning, and welcome to another International
Connection. We are continuing with our series on Mind Control. This
is the 12th in a series and this will be continuing another five
months in this time slot. Today we are going to be hearing an inter-
view with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris deNicola Ebner just
after they had given testimony of mind control and radiation experi-
mentation done to them as children to the Presidential Advisory Committee
on Human Radiation Experiments. Valerie Wolf is the therapist of Claudia
Mullen and Chris deNicola Ebner, both survivors of torture and abuse as
part of mind control experiments conducted by the U.S. government. We
heard six weeks ago on this show, the actual testimony given at the
Radiation Hearings. Today we are going to hear an interview conducted
by Will Snodgrass, Chemical Injury Communication Network, a local 
cable TV producer from Missoula, Montana. Claudia and Chris
describe how the mind control doctors induced dissociation or multiple
personalities through traumatization and abuse for the purpose of 
programming the personalities to perform various military intelligence
and criminal acts.  You are listening to CKLN, 88.1.  And now, that
interview.



WILL SNODGRASS:

Valerie, you testified today at the President's Council on Radiation
along with two of your clients, and a story unfolded there which America
should hear.  Probably many Americans will not believe when they hear it.
In your work as a professional therapist, what have you found with respect
to children and experimentation?

VALERIE WOLF:

Basically what we as therapists across the country are finding are a
group of clients that formally were considered untreatable, that based
on recent information we're finding are reporting having been subjects
in mind control experimentation performed by the government, the CIA
and the military establishment ... probably from about the late 1940's
until middle 80's and may even be going on today.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Is there any official documentation of these protocols or these
experiments?

VALERIE WOLF:

There is some documentation of it. There was a Commission on Mind Control
in the late 70's but it mostly focused on the use of adults, prisoners,
and mental patients.  What got missed were the children who were being
used in these experiments, and the reason I think that the children were
being missed was because they were either too young to speak out at that
time, or they were still involved in the experimentation.

WILL SNODGRASS:

When did you receive either written documentation or electromagnetic
documentation about this? Is this something that is circulating within
the group of therapists nationally?

VALERIE WOLF:

Basically the information was released at the Eastern Regional Conference
on Multiple Personality and Dissociative Disorders in June of 1992. Those
of us that were working with severely dissociated clients listened to
the information and followed up with it. I myself had had contact with
seven clients who report being subjects in these experiments. And the
way that I have proceeded is that I have deliberately not read any of
the documentation or read any of the books because there are several
books written on this. Basically what I have done is as my clients 
have emerged, I have sent my information to Alan Scheflin who is an
expert in this area to validate memories, and I have done that so that
he will call me back and say "do you know about such and such?" ...
I have no clue about any of this.  And these clients are real sensitive
to everything so that if I knew something, I don't want to cue them or
give them information or contaminate their memories, so basically the
memories are coming absolutely with total free recall.  There is no
cueing from me. In fact, they will tell you that I basically say very
little. I don't feed them any information as far as what is going on,
only as their memories come up and to validate the memories.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Mr. Scheflin has filed some Freedom of Information (FOIA) requests, 
we heard that today at the Hearing. Have there been documents 
provided by the government to him?

VALERIE WOLF:

It has been very difficult. He spent twenty years of his life gathering
information on this. A lot of the FOIA requests have been slowed down
or denied. It's very difficult to get this information and that was
one of the reasons we appeared at the Radiation Commission today,
because in an attempt to ask them to recommend an investigation of
this, and also to help us open the files and get the information we
need. We need to be responsible ... we want to know if what these
clients are saying is true. Now, what I have found in terms of the 
stuff I have sent and other therapists have found, is that some of 
this can be verified. And that they (clients) are telling the truth,
and some of the information they are supplying is not published anywhere,
it can only come if you file FOIA requests and obviously these clients
haven't done that. But these clients know things that there is no way
they could know unless they went through the experience.

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

There are things that can't even be found through FOIA like the identity
of people, their description ...

WILL SNODGRASS:

Your two clients here, Claudia and Chris, met through your practice.
Can you tell me a little bit about the encounter and the discovery
that both of you had been involved in CIA or U.S. government experimentation?
How did this come to light between the two of you as clients?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Between Chris and I? There wasn't any connection between Chris and I.
I hadn't seen her for two years, and the last time I had seen her, I
was being treated for PTSD for something that happened to me that had
nothing to do with this. I had no memory of being a victim of this.
Chris had no memory. As far as Chris and I, I didn't know she was ...
although I knew she was Valerie's patient, I didn't know that she
was recovering memories just like I was because she doesn't discuss
one patient with another, one client with another. So, there isn't
any connection between Chris and I other than the fact that we have
the same therapist.

WILL SNODGRASS:

But you did have the same doctor at one time?
Dr. Greene ...

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Well ... yes ...

PRENDERGAST:

Chris, would you like to talk about Dr. Greene?

CHRIS DENICOLA EBNER:

Dr. Greene performed radiation as well as mind control and drug
experiments on me between 1966 and 1976 and it was done out in
the desert and he worked really on mind control with me. He did
use radiation experiments on me as far as I remember him doing
some radiation experiments on my uterus and my chest, throat, neck ...
things like that. He also ... but his main objective with me was
to turn me into ... actually to gain total control of my mind and to
split it apart into as many different areas as he could, and develop
me into a spy assassin and as I resisted him more and more, he turned
it all against me.  He used different sorts of trauma techniques and
basically trauma, drugs, messages, post-hypnotic suggestions and then
more trauma. Basically what he wanted was to get me to self destruct.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Valerie, how do we know that the CIA was targeting certain children,
certain types of children? How did they recruit if in fact that's what
they were doing?

VALERIE WOLF:

The information I have is that what they were looking for was children
who were already traumatized, who were already abused, children who
were very intelligent, children who had good memories. What they would
do is look in clinics.  A lot of the kids were in military families.
In Chris's case her father had military connections and he actually
started grooming her. You have to understand we are talking Cold War
mentality when this started, and we forget about that sometimes. In
terms of fighting Communism ... the end justifies the means ... and
that kind of thought was available at that time. So there were people
who truly thought they were doing something for their country. There
were also people who were really sadistic, and people who were pedophiles,
that hurt their children. So what they were looking for were kids that
were already abused.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Claudia, what are your earliest recollections of this process?
How did the government select you, and what do you remember about it?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Well I was brought to Tulane University by my mother. I had been abused
since the time I was two years old. She was friends with the Chairman
of the Board, Mr. Fenner, and she asked for a recommendation of a top
psychiatrist in New Orleans, and Dr. Robert G. Heath who was Chairman
of the Department at Tulane Medical School was recommended. As a favour,
he took me on as a private client. He said he didn't treat children, 
but as a favour he would make an exception and he said he would treat
me for free.  My mother signed a consent for anything he would deem
necessary, and he came up with a diagnosis of childhood schizphrenia
and aberrant behavior so he had something to put down in medical records.
What he was doing actually was, he had already agreed to receive I
believe something along the lines of $300,000 over so many years for
Tulane in exchange for using a whole ward of patients, or subjects,
as many as he could get, and conduct experiments on them. He was already
involved in research on brain mapping, doing all sorts of brain experiments
and he was considered one of the top in his field and so they went to
him and asked, and I just happened to get sent there at the age of seven.
>From then I kept going back for treatments, I was told. I would not recall
what had happened when I was there. Dr. Heath would tell me what had
happened. I would go home and the next they needed me, they would call
my mother and she would send me back for treatment. I would go over there
and the same thing ... I wouldn't remember when I went back home.  In
between I had no memory.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Valerie, you had two clients who had come to you in adult life with
some very very serious problems. You had some information about 
programming. Had you at that time put two and two together about
these two clients? Did you suspect that they had been part of a
government program? What happened?

VALERIE WOLF:

Actually when each of them became my client, I had absolutely no
idea. The way that I discovered it with Chris was that a couple of
months after I got the information, she started showing some of the
behaviors that had been described and started the downhill slide
that usually led in these kinds of clients to the hospital ... so
out of sheer desperation I figured, well this is worth a try ...
started some very very careful gentle inquiries, and uncovered ...
it was like Whammo ... there it was. 

WILL SNODGRASS:

What did you find?  What was displayed to you that led you to believe ...

VALERIE WOLF:

Well, basically what she was showing was this really compulsive behavior
to hurt herself, really compulsive behavior to kill herself, self distruct
kinds of stuff. And it was like a repetitive thing ... and the puzzling
thing about it was, Chris really didn't want to die. So why she was
doing these kinds of things? So it was like it was something that was
separate from her. Plus she had all these years of therapy, and good
therapy, before she came to me. Ten years of therapy before she came
to me, and she had had good therapy and she had made progress but not
to the degree we would expect. So those are the kinds of things that
were talked about, and those are the kinds of things that I have come
to understand. When you have good therapy and clients aren't making
good progress you are missing something ... and when I started making
very indirect, non-leading kinds of inquiries, basically what happened
was we got into memories of electric shock, memories of codes, things
like that, that we started working with.  But there had been no
mention of her being a government subject and I never brought it up
with her although I knew that's what it meant, and we were working
it through therapeutically but I had never said a word to her. And
a couple of months ago, maybe four or five months ago, after Chris
had finished a memory, she asked for a piece of paper and pencil
and started writing out "CIA Confidential Memos" and I had never
mentioned anything about CIA involvement to her. 

As far as Claudia is concerned, she came to me with the same kind of
thing where ... she is bright, she is verbal, she was working real
hard in therapy, we were working through stuff, and she ended up in
the hospital which is unusual for the kinds of things ... I mean, I
have years of experience dealing with abuse and these kinds of things.
One day ... after about nine months of therapy ... she came in with a 
piece of paper with words written all over it, and in the middle was
"MKULTRA"  ... (one of the names of one of the projects associated
with the mind control). That's when I knew she was involved. I had
also never said anything to her about it.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Claudia, at the time you brought this document in, did you know what
it was or where it came from?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

I had no idea of what it meant. I didn't know what it stood for. It
was just something that started coming forward in my memory, and I
would get bits and pieces. I would remember the names of doctors and
I would say to Valerie, "Have you ever heard of this man? Who is he?"
and Valerie would say, "I don't know."  I started remembering treatment.
It was just bits and pieces. It wasn't like ... I couldn't remember
whole weeks at a time ... I couldn't remember.  I had always gaps in
my childhood ... I couldn't remember gaps of time that were lost. I
didn't know why. I came to understand that I was abused by my mother.
I assumed that's why I went into treatment was for PTSD, and then
eventually I learned I was abused by my mother, but I thought that
was the extent of it. I didn't even recall ever being at a University
Medical Centre, never remembered going there. Never thought I had
been to Washington, D.C. but I had.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Do both of you now remember going into laboratories or clinics or
being involved in immersion therapies, or dark rooms, those kinds of
things? 

CHRIS DENICOLA:

I remember being in a laboratory in 1966.  I was four years old, and
I was strapped down on a table, on my back. I was naked, I had electrodes
all over my body ... my head, temples, chest, stomach, back, legs. Dr.
Greene was there, and there were other children in the room as well.
It was a laboratory. At Tennessee University. I remember he had what looked
like an overhead projector, it had a red flashing light. He was saying
that he was going burn images in my brain and I would do whatever he
told me to do, and how the images would go deeper and deeper into my
brain. Just consistently repeating the information along with electric
shock and he would use the electroshock and then the imagery and then
more shock, and drugs to make me drowsy. Sometimes I would pass out ...
yes, I do remember that. I remember being in a dark room as well.
Actually a lot of the experiments took place in a dark room out in
the desert in Tucson, Arizona. Most of the experiments took place there
with Dr. Greene.

WILL SNODGRASS:

People today at the Hearing asked, "where were your parents? how could
this happen? how could you be taken out from your home or the place
where you lived  and brought into this situation ...

CHRIS DENICOLA:

My parents were divorced when I was around four years old. My Mom had
no knowledge, but my father, Donald Richard Ebner, was involved in the
experiments. With Dr. Greene and he would sneak me out of the house
in the middle of the night. I remember feeling drugged in the house
and these men coming in and they would sneak me out of the house, and
my Mom would be asleep. That's how he gained access to me, and visits,
things like that. They did most of the experiments in the middle of
the night. He just found his way into the home. My Mom had no knowledge
of it at the time. She divorced him because I was afraid of him, and she
couldn't figure out what was wrong. He had to be sneaky in order to
get a hold of me, and that's how he would do that. He would just ...
he got the key from me ... and he would sneak in in the middle of the
night, and drag me out, and bring me back before my Mom woke up, and
that's when most of the experiments took place. I have talked to my
Mom since then, since the memories have surfaced, and she confirms
that she absolutely believes that he was capable and did in fact
participate in these experiments.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Was he a member of the U.S. military? (Yes) And do you remember other
military people who were coming into your home at that time or that
he would associate with, or talk with?

CHRIS DENICOLA:

No. The only person I know that was my Dad, Don Ebner. I can tell you
names of memos that I saw with people from ... the military and Internal
Affairs ... memos that I saw in Dr. Greene's office. Off the top of my
head, I couldn't tell you the other military names.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Claudia, do you remember Dr. Greene?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Very well. The first time I met him was, from my understanding now, most
of the time he kept himself disguised and used different names depending
on what part of the country he was in. At Tulane, he saw no reason to
do that I guess, and he would wear a white coat just like any other
doctor, and he would wear a name tag, Dr. L. Wilson Greene. But he
didn't like anyone calling him anything but "Doctor". He didn't even
like being called Dr. Greene. I knew him from the years 1957 until about
five years before he died in 1988.

WILL SNODGRASS:

So Dr. Greene was operating at Tulane University and also at Kansas?

VALERIE WOLF:

And at Tucson. Dr. Greene has been reported -- he is probably the most
consistent figure or doctor that's been reported by almost everybody.
He went under the names of Dr. Green, Dr. Greenbaum, Greentree, Greenberg.
But always with the Green in his name. He travelled throughout the country,
training people, doing consultation and also doing stuff on his own, I
think, as Chris experienced.

CHRIS DENICOLA:

He used disguise with me as well. I never saw him without a surgical
mask, usually something on his head, and all I ever saw was a little
bit of the black rimmed glasses and whatever. He was just a sadistic,
evil man, and he hated me because I would not comply with what he
wanted me to do.

WILL SNODGRASS:

We have memories that have surfaced here at some point in time. Did
both of you, or either of you, recall these memories before you got
into therapy?  Were there some memories at all of what had happened
to you?

CLAUDIA MULLEN:

Well, there would be times in my life over the years ... I guess the
last time I was actually involved in the projects was 1983. After that
I was supposed to be monitored by a family doctor who was a family
friend who was to keep track and make sure I didn't get any memory
back. And if I was, he was to report it to them, to Dr. Greene. I
had started to get somatic symptoms. I would end up in the hospital
and they couldn't find any reason for the illness. They would call
in this Dr. Brown and he would notify the other doctors and they
would make sure my amnesia was reinforced.

WILL SNODGRASS:

Valerie what is the significance of these organic symptoms that
presented?

VALERIE WOLF:

Basically what you have to understand is how trauma memories are
encoded and that is sort of a technical term for how memories are
remembered. There has been a lot of contraversy lately about research
on memory. There has been a lot of research done on memory, and what
they are finding is a lot of the information that is in the public
is about normal memory. One of the things that those of us who work
with traumatic memory have found is that it is very different, even
as to where it is stored in the brain. Regular memories are stored
in the part of the brain called the hippocampus.