MIND CONTROL SERIES
Ryerson CKLN Radio in Toronto:  INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION, Producer Wayne Morris
Sixth tape in a series of broadcasts on CKLN-FM 88.1 in Toronto

Wayne Morris:  Good morning and welcome to the International Connection once
again.  This is a continuation of a radio series on mind control that we are
bringing you here. We heard, for the last five weeks, a lecture and
interview by Dr. Colin Ross, detailing the history of CIA mind control
experimental programs that have been documented in material obtained under
the Freedom of Information Act. What we are going to hear today is the mind
control
testimony that was introduced into the Presidential Advisory Committee on
Human Radiation Experiments on March 15, 1995. President Clinton has
apologized and compensated some of the victims of the radiation experiments.
At the end of the hearing however, Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and
Christine deNicola gave their testimony about mind control experiments and
linked in with the radiation experiments. We are going to hear the testimony
that was given to the Advisory Committee in the second half of the show. In
the first half, we are going to hear Claudia Mullen talk about the
experience of giving testimony at the Presidential hearings.  Claudia is a
survivor of CIA mind control experimentation for many years, and got
introduced to this through Tulane University, and we heard Colin Ross talk
about Tulane's involvement in the mind control programs in previous weeks'
broadcasts here.

It is extremely brave of these women to come forward, and they really, in
effect, broke the silence for many survivors.  You are listening to 88.l, CKLN.

*****************
Claudia Mullen:
(from a presentation at the final Believe the Children conference in
Chicago, April, 1997)

But when she leaves the room, her life is never the same again because she
has been asked to give testimony in front of a Presidential Committee on
Radiation, and ... that's pretty much what I wanted to tell you all ... was 
what the experience was like and I have some clips from the testimony to
show you and then ... you all got hand-outs, but they are not complete, but
anyhow.
She walks in the room and there are obviously a lot of important people
there but there are also a lot of just everyday people ... people of all
ages. The only people that are missing are children. There aren't any
children there, but it's a good thing, because it's scary, what she hears
from the people who get up ahead of her to tell their stories. It is pretty
heart-wrenching and she forgets to be nervous for a while because they just
move her so much. But then finally she hears her name, she realizes "oh, I
have to give testimony", so she goes up and she gives her testimony and they
ask her questions, and then when she leaves the room ... all of a sudden
everybody knows her name now, and people just start storming all over her
and telling her how brave she is and she feels scared to death and she can't
figure out why everybody thinks she is so brave ... but she got up and told
her story about the Monster Mom, and about the Magister, and about the camp,
and about the cabins, the Deep Creek Lodge place, and I forgot to tell you
how she remembered. Because remember how I said that she always ... I always
forgot everything. As soon as I got home, I would forget what had happened
and that went on, when I went away to college, I still had no memory of it.
And then in October of 1992 something happened to me, completely unrelated,
it had nothing to do with any of this ... just another crime in a series of
a lot of crimes actually ... a man comes into her home, a man that she
knows, and he assaults her, he rapes her, and he beats her for hours and she
thinks it is the worse thing that has ever happened to her, but somehow it
is really familiar to her. After that day, all of a sudden she starts
getting all of these horrible nightmares and memories and flashbacks.
She didn't even know what a flashback was then. Flashbacks start coming and
it pretty much triggered all the memories that started coming back. And so
from the time she goes to Washington, she's only about half way through
doing the memories so it is really kind of hard when she gets up to talk
about it because 
she has to control, not to go into a flashback when she is talking about it.
But it turns out okay and after that, I have to say why she is never the
same again.  

>From then on there was no going back. Once I did it, I had to keep talking
because if you stop talking, that's when they get you. There are a lot of, to
be honest there are a lot of good things and there are some bad parts about
testifying. The good part is that she got to tell her story and people
believed her. She was asked to tell her story and because ... when the
memories started coming back she went into treatment and into therapy ...
her imaginary friends woke up, after all these years, they woke up again,
and they came out and they would start writing furiously ... I mean pages
... until it became into a book ... about this big.  All of the memories,
all of the people, all the places that she went, what the people's titles
were, who they worked for, how much money they got, anything that they
talked about ... whole conversations. And she sent off the information to
various experts across the country who tried to verify as much as they
could, and lo and behold, there was a lot of stuff in there that wasn't
written down anywhere that hadn't been released yet, but they think it is in
the CIA files but ... 

It's good that she got up to tell her story, and every time she tells her
story it's a little more healing, it's therapeutic. It also gives other
people a chance to tell their stories, because it kind of starts something
going ... because ever since that day people have started to talk about what
happened, and she has met so many other children that are now grown-up and
they are starting to remember and she knows she is not alone anymore.
Because all those years, even though she did remember a lot, she was really
alone, and she thought "special" meant alone or "odd" and I guess you could
say the bad part, like I said once you testify, it becomes public record and
the good part is you can't be sued because as long as you are telling the
truth ... and that's what I did ... you are making accusations against
people but they can't sue you because you are testifying, and it's the
truth, and you can talk about the same people as much as you want and they
can't ever sue you. That's one thing I didn't have to worry about, being sued. 

I have been threatened and harassed, assaulted since it happened and I
wouldn't be telling the truth if I said everything was just great since then
because there have been some bad times, but would I do it all over again
knowing what would happen?  I wouldn't change a thing, I would still do it
in a second. I would do it after I had all my memories back ... that's the
only thing I would change. Another reason that it would have been better if
I had recalled all my memories before I testified was that I realized they
used a lot of time distortion along with the drugs and the electricity and
the trauma, they used hypnosis and they could distort time and it somehow
gets to confuse people ... they thought if there is a slight chance that she
is going to remember, at least she will get things all confused. Plus they
throw in a few things like ceremonies and things like that just so you will
sound really crazy if you ever start to remember.  

And so my testimony would have been a little more accurate ... there's a few
distortions in there, a few ... like mixing people's names with the wrong
face ... but once I got all my memories then I remembered exactly, but you
can't change the testimony. Once it is given, it is given.  I thought maybe
you all would like to see a little clip from it. I didn't bring my testimony
because, as you can probably imagine, I don't like seeing myself on film. I
don't mind having my picture taken, but I really can't stand watching myself
on film and I guess you know why.  I mainly wanted to give you an idea of
what it looks like and ... because hopefully, in the near future, there will
be a Commission for Victims of Mind Control. This focused on radiation, and
we were allowed to testify because ... and there were four of us who were
victims of mind control ... but they used radiation.  I was, I guess one of
the lucky ones, because they didn't use a lot of radiation with me. They
took a lot of
x-rays because I got hurt a lot, but with some mind control victims, they
used a lot of radiation and that's how we got to testify in front of a
Radiation Commission. 

But hopefully, that's what we are trying to do ... that 's what the whole
movement is about. What we got started is we are trying to get a Committee
to investigate CIA  files that have to do with mind control.  
So I will show you a little bit of what it was like, and the kinds of
questions they ask you because that's what you have to be prepared for. They
only gave us two and a half weeks to prepare ... I went with my therapist
and one other girl from New Orleans and then another person came from New
Mexico to testify, and then there were six other people, but they were
testifying strictly about radiation.  We were able to submit as much
material as we wanted ahead of time but you could only talk for five minutes
... but they gave us a bit longer. We were told you had to put everything
down and say it within five minutes ... and then leave time for questions.
Since they did ask you questions. The reasons I left the questions in is
that was the tough part. The questions. I mean it's not that they were hard
to answer, it just kind of put you on the spot, you know, and not knowing
exactly what they were going to ask you. 

So this will give you a good idea of what kind of things they might ask,
what it might be like.  In the handouts, I just wanted to mention, the
reason I didn't read, or tell you what was in my testimony, I put in a
little bit about the Advisory Committee and that's the agenda for the day we
were testifying, and a Memorandum from the Vice President about the
research. Then my therapist, who talked before I did, showed how there was a
link between mind control and radiation and how the memories had started to
come back and all the therapists who she had been talking to all over the
country ... their clients were saying the same thing. Not exactly the same
thing, but it was so similar it was uncanny. And this is my statement, but I
actually submitted a lot more material than that ... names, places, dates,
anything I could remember.  

This is in October ... we finally got the final report of the Advisory
Committee. This is what ... it's two pages.  Actually nobody even called
us and told us they came out with any recommendations. I saw it on the
internet. Somebody sent it to me by e-mail. You've got to remember that
these Committees last about a year, they meet once a month, in different
parts of the country so different members of the public can come talk. They
reach every area of the country. So this had been going on ... we were at
the very end of it. It had been going on since March or April of 1994.  So
this is what the recommendations were ... they listened to us, like I said,
because they recommended that all records of the CIA bearing on programs of
secret human research such as MKULTRA ... that's all the names of the
projects that I could remember ... they recommended that they be
declassified.  Of course that hasn't happened yet.  There are some steps
here to advocate for investigating, informing, advocacy groups like Lynne
and Blanche's group that they started
ACHES-MC ... they can correct me if I am wrong but this is kind of because
we put our foot in the door and testified ... they started ACHES-MC
(Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentat Survivors - Mind Control).  And
also if you would like to read the testimony itself ... there is a book by
Jon Rapaport called "US Government Mind Control Experiments on Children:
They Want to Know". In the back of the room there are some fliers on how you
can order that. 

The documentation ... they kept asking us about "where is documentation?"
For one thing, my memories are considered documentation.  All the people I
remembered, places, project names, numbers, medical records, psychiatric
records, my therapist's records. School records ... we actually went back
and verified that I did miss school at these times that I remembered.  In
grade school I probably missed a third of every year and yet I was never
held back, I don't know why. Family records are considered documentation ...
you can go back and talk to relatives who remember you were gone at this
period of time. Also remember seeing your burns, or being treated at Tulane
... my sister remembers that. Pictures from childhood. My mother kept
scrapbooks. She usually had two scrapbooks a year and then except for two
Christmases, there are no Christmas pictures with me in it. There is my
sister, my mother, my father, and I am not in any of them, because I wasn't
there. And there are pictures of my sister's birthdays, but none for me.
Notes, cards, or anything from the perpetrators. I actually did ... I got a
Christmas card from Uncle Otto. Remember Uncle Otto from ............???  I
don't know if he really wrote it or not. They might have just done it to
make me feel like ... I don't know.  Anyhow I got a Christmas card from him
and the Magister gave it to me and said Uncle Otto had sent it.  He also
gave me a doll.  He sent me a doll as a Christmas present. They took it away
from me. Any material, harassment material, I got quite a bit of this ...
and I will probably will when I go home ... I get it in the mail. I get it
at the house and I have the police come every time ... it's written on my
house, on my car, fence. It's been written mostly in red paint ... sometimes
animal blood or gore.  They are like threats, or you know ... it's just
harassment.  Things like "Die", "Shut Up", or whatever.  And so every time
that happens I have to have the police come out and take pictures so it is
documented.  I keep everything that I get in the mail.  I have caller ID and
call tracer ... and sometimes I will get phone calls and they will say words
that are supposed to trigger me and remind me of things that happened. They
will call me Chrystal, which was my name. Also, you can order your phone
records.  Every month, along with my bill, I get every phone call that came
into my house ... it is written down, where it's from.  Military records.
How the memories match the projects and experiments.  The similarity of
stories between people.  Also it is a good idea, but don't ever do this
alone, to go back to the sites if they are still there. You would be
surprised. A lot of the buildings are still there, Tulane University is
still there ... it's still going strong.  Go back there and take pictures of
places you were in ... but you don't go alone. I went with my therapist
because I was afraid of going into flashback.  And of course, the CIA files,
if you can get them declassified. And there might be information that you
know that isn't written or validated anywhere, in any book.  

Everybody has to decide for themselves, if they want to start talking. But I
think you can see how it is important and it helps the healing process. It
puts you in touch with people that you never thought you would meet. You get
to know people who went through the same thing you did ... and that's
validation for yourself. That's just as important ... you have to decide if
the good outweighs the bad.  Like I said, I would do it again in a minute.
Somebody once said, great spirits have always encountered violent opposition
from mediocre minds ... Albert Einstein said that.  I like that.

***********

Wayne Morris:  We are next going to hear that testimony in Washington
(March, 1995). First you will hear Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen's and Chris
deNicola's therapist; then Chris deNicola, then Claudia Mullen.

**********
...hearing spokesperson: Forgive me if I am not pronouncing these names
correctly ... we have Ms. Chris Denicola, Ms. Valerie Wolf, and Ms. Claudia
Mullen. Are you all of New Orleans?

CVC:  Yes.

HS:   Thank you for making the effort to come up and speak to us.  

Valerie Wolf:  I am going to start. My name is Valerie Wolf.  In listening
to the testimony today, it all sounds really familiar. I am here to talk
about a possible link between radiation and mind control experimentation
that began
in the late 1940's. The main reason that mind control research is being
mentioned is because people are alleging that they were exposed as children
to mind control, radiation, and chemical experimentation which were
administered by the same doctors who were known to be involved in conducting
both radiation and mind control research.  Written documentation has been
provided revealing the names of people, and the names of research projects
in statements from people across the country.  It is also important to
understand mind control techniques and follow-ups into adulthood may have
been used to intimidate particular research subjects into not talking about
their victimization in government research. As a therapist for the past
twenty-two years, I have specialized in treating victims and perpetrators of
trauma, and their families.  When word got out that I was appearing at this
hearing,
nearly forty therapists across the country (and I had about a week and a
half to prepare) contacted me to talk about clients who had reported being
subjected to radiation and mind control experiments. The consistency of
people's stories about the purpose of the mind control and pain induction
techniques, such as electric shock, use of hallucinogens, sensory
deprivation, hypnosis, dislocation of limbs, and sexual abuse is remarkable.  

There is almost nothing published on this aspect of mind control abuse with
children, and these clients come from all over the country having had no
contact with each other. What was startling was that many of these
therapists were reporting that clients were also physically ill, with
auto-immune problems, thyroid problems, multiple sclerosis, and other muscle
and connective tissue diseases as well as mysterious ailments for which a
diagnosis cannot be found.  Plus somatization disorder is commonly found in
these clients. Many of the clients who have been involved in human
experimentation with the government, have multiple medically-documented
physical ailments and I was really shocked today to hear one of the speakers
talk about the cysts and the teeth breaking off because I have a client that
that is happening to.  Many of the people are afraid to tell their doctors
their histories as mind control subjects for fear of being considered to be
crazy.  These clients have named same of the same people; particularly Dr.
Greene, who was associated with client reports of childhood induction of
pain, childhood mind control techniques, and childhood sexual abuse. One of
my clients who had seen him with a name tag, identified him as Dr. L. Wilson
Greene.  A person with this same name was the Scientific Director of the
Chemical and Radiological Laboratories at the Army Chemical Centre, and that
he was engaged in doing research for the army and other intelligence
agencies. Other names that have come to light are Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, Dr.
Martin Orne (who it is reported were also involved in radiation research).
It needs to be made clear that people have remembered these names and events
spontaneously, with free recall, and without the use of any extraordinary
retrieval techniques such as hypnosis.  As much as possible, we have tried
to verify the memories with family members, records, and experts in the
field.  Many attempts have been made through Freedom of Information filings
to gain access to the mind control research documentation. Requests have
generally been slowed down, or denied; although some information has been
obtained.  Which suggests that at least some of the information supplied by
these clients is true.  It is important that we obtain all of the
information contained in CIA and military files to verify or deny our
clients' memories. Although many of the files for MKULTRA may have been
destroyed, whatever is left, along with the files for other projects, such
as BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE to name only two, contain valuable information.

Furthermore, if, as the evidence suggests, some of these people were used in
radiation experiments, there might be information in the mind control
experiment files on radiation experiments.  We need this information to help
in the rehabilitation and treatment of many people who have severe
psychological and medical problems which interfere with their social,
emotional and financial 
well-being.  Finally, I urge you to recommend an investigation into these
matters. Although there was a Commission on Mind Control, it did not include
experiments on children, because most of them were too young, or still
involved in research in the late 1970's to come forward.  The only way to
end the harassment and suffering of these people is to make public what has
happened to them in the mind control experiments.  Please recommend that
there be an investigation and that the files be opened on the mind control
experiments as they related to children.  Thank you.

*******

Chris deNicola:

Good afternoon. I am Chris deNicola, born July 1952, rendering me thirty-two
years of age. I was a subject in radiation, as well as mind control and drug
experiments performed by a man I knew as Dr. Greene.  My parents were
divorced around 1966 and Donald Richard Ebner, my natural father, was
involved with Dr. Greene in the experiments.  I was a subject in 1966 to
1976.  Dr. Greene performed radiation experiments on me in 1970 focusing on
my neck, throat and chest. 1972 focusing on my chest, and focusing on my
uterus in 1975.  Each time I became dizzy, nauseous and threw up.  All these
experiments were performed on me in conjunction with mind control techniques
and drugs in Tucson, Arizona.
Dr. Greene was using me mostly as a mind control subject from 1966 to 1973.
His objective was to gain control of my mind and train me to be a spy
assassin. The first significant memory took place at Kansas City University
in 1966. Don Ebner took me there by plane when my mom was out of town. I was
in what looked like a laboratory and there seemed to be other children. I
was strapped down, naked, spread-eagled on a table on my back. Dr. Greene
had electrodes on my body, including my head. He used what looked like an
overhead projector and repeatedly said he was burning different images into
my brain while a red light flashed aimed at my forehead. In between each
sequence, he used electroshock on my body and told me to go deeper and
deeper, deeper.  While repeating each image, would go deeper into my brain
and I would do whatever he told me to do. I felt drugged because he had
given me a shot before he started the procedure. When it was over, he gave
me another shot. The next thing I remember I was with my grandparents again
in Tucson, Arizona. I was four years old. 

You can see from this experiment that Dr. Greene used trauma, drugs,
posthypnotic suggestion and more trauma in an effort to gain total control
over my mind. He used me in radiation experiments both for the purposes of
determining the effects of radiation on various parts of my body and to
terrorize me as an additional trauma in the mind control experiments. The
rest of the experiments took place in Tucson, Arizona out in the desert. I
was taught how to pick locks, be secretive, use my photographic memory and a
technique to withhold information by repeating numbers to myself. Dr. Greene
moved on to wanting me to kill dolls that looked like real children.  I
stabbed a doll with a spear once after being severely traumatized, but the
next time I refused. He used many pain induction techniques, but as I got
older, I resisted more and more. 

He often tied me down in a cage which was near his office. Between 1972 and
1976 he and his assistants were sometimes careless and left the cage
unlocked. Whenever physically possible I snuck into his office and found
files and memos addressed to CIA and military personnel. Included in these
files were projects, sub-projects and experiment names with some code
numbers about radiation and mind control experiments which I have submitted
in the written documentation. I was caught twice and Dr. Green ruthlessly
used electroshock, drugs, spun me on a table, put shocks on my stomach and
my back, dislocated my joints, and used hypnotic techniques to make me feel
crazy and suicidal.  

Because of my rebellion and growing lack of cooperation, they gave up on me
as a spy assassin.  Consequently during the last two years, 1974-76, Dr.
Greene used various mind control techniques to reverse the spy assassin
messages, to self destruct and death messages. His purpose?  He wanted me
dead, and I struggled to stay alive all of my adult life. I believe it is by
the grace of God that I am still alive. These horrible experiments have
profoundly affected my life. I developed Multiple Personality Disorder
because Dr. Greene's goal was to split my mind into as many parts as
possible so he could control me totally. 
He failed, but I have to endure years of constant physical, mental and
emotional pain even to this day. I have been in therapy consistently for
twelve years, and it wasn't until I found my current therapist two and a
half years ago, who had knowledge of the mind control experiments, that I
have finally been able to make real progress and begin to heal.

In closing, I ask that you keep in mind that the memories I describe are but
a glimpse of the countless others that took place in the ten years in
between 1966 and 1976.  That they weren't just radiation, but mind control
and drug experiments as well. I have included more detailed information of
what I remember in your written documentation. Please help us by
recommending an investigation and making the information available so that
therapists and other mental health professionals can help more people like
myself. I know I can get better. I am getting better. And I know others can
too. With the proper help.
Please help us in an effort to prevent these heinous acts from continuing in
the future. Thank you very much.

***********