MIND CONTROL SERIES  
CKLN Radio in TORONTO:  Producer Wayne Morris interviews Dr. Colin Ross

Second in a Series of Broadcasts
aired Sunday April 6, 1997 on CKLN-FM 88.1 in Toronto

Part 1 of transcript

W.M.  I am speaking with Dr. Colin Ross, a psychiatrist and researcher
practicing in Dallas, Texas.  Dr. Ross, I wonder if you could just briefly
describe who you are, and what your work is.

C.R.  I am a Canadian by birth and training ... I went to medical school in
Edmonton, Alberta and did my psychiatry training in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I
moved down here to Dallas just a little over five years ago. I am a
specialist in Multiple Personality Disorder. I have written a number of
different books, and lots of research papers and so on, on that.  Right now
I am working at a hospital in the Dallas area here. We have a program that
we run on a contract for the hospital ... which mostly treats people with
Multiple Personality Disorder and other related disorders.  Most of the
people we treat describe very traumatic and abusive childhoods.

W.R.  What is Dissociative Identity Disorder, and is it the same thing as
Multiple Personality Disorder?

C.R.  Dissociative Identity Disorder is the official new name for Multiple
Personality Disorder. It hasn't really caught on in general language ...
it's a professional, technical term. In 1994 that new diagnosis was
introduced. It just replaces Multiple Personality Disorder, and the criteria
for diagnosing it has changed a little bit, mainly by adding some criteria
for amnesia. But it basically means the same thing as Multiple Personality
Disorder.

W.R. What does it mean when somebody has this disorder?

C.R. The basic criteria for diagnosing it are pretty straightforward. You
have these different personality states, or identities, that take turns
being in control of the body. There is some sort of amnesia, or memory
barrier, between the different personality states. There are several
important points to understand about this disorder. First of all, it is not
literally true that they have these different personalities. They just have
these fragmented components of one personality. Those have been referred to
as different "personalities" for over one hundred years, but they are not
really different personalities. There isn't really more than one person
there. And there are several different ways you can end up having MPD. One
way, which is what we think we see most of the time clinically is where you
have basically been physically, sexually, emotionally abused or neglected as
a child and you create these different identities to cope with it, and hold
the memories and feelings about it, and so on. That can be, as I said, a
combination of various types of trauma in childhood, and it has to be fairly
serious trauma. And another way that you can get MPD is where it is created,
either by mistake, or deliberately, by somebody else. And that could be in
bad therapy, which is all out of control and not being handled properly. And
the other major way of arriving at MPD is when you have what is called a
Factitious Disorder. That means that they deliberately fake having it by
deliberately getting into the patient role to get attention, or get out of
something, or for some specific purpose.

W.M. Have you seen this disorder occur due to trauma as an adult, or does it
specifically happen while a child?

C.R. Well, there are some cases reported in the literature and there is the
odd case where it is trauma that starts in adulthood, but the vast majority
of times it seems to start in childhood.

W.M.  We have listened to your lecture about the history of United States'
mind control. You refer to the term "iatrogenic". What does that mean?

C.R. "Iatrogenic" is just a Greek word that means "created by the doctor".
So Iatrogenic Multiple Personality is MPD that is created by mistake by a
bad therapist who is using improper techniques.

W.M. How did you get involved with people suffering with DID?

C.R. I actually diagnosed my first case when I was a medical student in
Edmonton, Alberta and I just really found it fascinating and interesting and
when I was doing my four years of psychiatry training in Winnipeg, Manitoba
I saw one more case, and I thought it was going to be too rare to specialize
in ... but then in 1985, when I finished my psychiatry training I diagnosed
another case, and then I got some referrals and then more referrals, and
then I got a reputation for it and ended up getting lots of referrals from
all different kinds of people in Western Canada and gradually switched over
to that being my specialty.

W.M. And this was when you were operating a practice in Winnipeg, or was it
in Edmonton, at the time?

C.R. Winnipeg. I was a full-time University Professor of Psychiatry at the
time at one of the hospitals there.

W.M. What were your findings from working with people with DID or MPD?

C.R. Well, I have published just on working with MPD and related things,
approximately sixty or so papers in the professional literature, and I found
quite a few different things. But the main theme that really goes through
the MPD literature ... that is, that people who have this diagnosis
clinically have lots of other things going on at the same time ... lots of
depression, lots of anxiety, drug and alcohol problems, eating disorder,
sleep problems ... so they don't just have MPD ... they have all kinds of
different symptoms. They also tend to be in the health care system for quite
a long period of time ... not all the time ... but the majority of cases are
in the health care system getting psychiatric treatment for quite a while
... on average about seven years before the MPD is diagnosed. And the other
theme that we see going all the time is childhood trauma ... that MPD arises
as a way of coping with childhood trauma. Then we just actually found out
this week that a paper has been accepted at the American Journal of
Psychiatry where we assessed 103 people with this diagnosis here in Dallas
about almost exactly four years ago now ... where we gave them a whole bunch
of different questionnaires and standardized tests and interviews and so on,
and we followed up with as many as we could ... about fifty-four of them ...
and the reduction of all these different symptoms was really impressive and
already in the first four years of the study, twelve of the fifty-four
people are integrated back into one person. They had a dramatic and
meaningful reduction, not just in the number of MPD related symptoms ... but
also depression, anxiety, substance abuse, all kinds of things. So this is a
first scientifically designed treatment outcome study that really shows that
good treatment can be very helpful.

W.M. So these people you are talking about did undergo treatment with you,
or other therapists?

C.R. They came to our hospital ... usually for an average of about seventeen
days or so. 70% of our people are from outside Texas, so they are from over
the U.S.A. and we have had probably fifteen admissions from people in
Ontario. They would then go home, and are followed up by their therapists.
So they only get about two, three, sometimes four weeks with us. They may go
into our day hospital program for a little bit as well. But basically they
are followed up by therapists all over the country.

W.M. And are these therapists in contact with you in terms of methods of
therapy?

C.R. They have usually read my books, and been to some of my workshops, and
are aware of my approach. But they don't have to necessarily follow my approach.

W.M. And these other symptoms that you were talking about ... do you feel
that they were also a result of childhood trauma?

C.R. Yes. The whole package seems to be related to childhood trauma. Now we
have a lot of contraversy going on in society about this ... in psychiatry,
psychology, sociology, and so on ... and we need a lot more research, but
that's my understanding right now. There's a fair bit of research data that
backs that up ... it's not totally nailed down scientifically.

W.M. I am wondering from your experience working in Canada, how has the
Canadian medical system responded to your findings on MPD research?

C.R. Roughly about the same as in the U.S.A. Overall, there is a lot of
skepticism, a lot of political agitation, a fair bit of negative, hostile
propaganda, and back-stabbing about it. And then there is also quite a lot
of support. Obviously, if I have had sixty professional papers published, I
am getting a reasonable reception. The main difference between Canada and
the U.S.A. was that in Canada I just couldn't get the financial and clinical
support to set up and run a program. And the reason that is possible down
here is that there is a private, for profit sector in the mental health
system. It is profit driven, it is a business and the hospital that I
contract with is traded on the New York Stock Exchange and so on. And since
I attract the patients, there is a financial motive for the hospital to be
interested in having me provide that service. So that financial motive
allows the system to set aside all of these ideological and political
debates that go on and so therefore I am able to run a program.

W.M.  So for the survivors of childhood abuse that you are dealing with I
guess they would have to have access to some kind of funds to be able to
undergo therapy. What is your sense of people who have undergone this in
childhood and do not have access to therapy?

C.R.  The breakdown in terms of insurance coverage that we have in our
program is that roughly 50% are on Medicare which is a government disability
program. They are sort of like Canadian health care system people in that
their health care is paid for by the government, and they also get
disability/welfare type payments for their support. So half of our people
are insured in a way that is clearly similar to Canada. The other half have
some sort of private insurance through their employer or spouse's employer.
If you are in the one-third of people in the U.S.A. who don't have proper
medical insurance, then you can't get proper medical care, including
psychiatric, and including the kind we provide. That would seem to be a
reason to think that the Canadian health care system is superior to the
U.S.A. The funny thing is that if you have MPD or a related disorder, your
odds of getting treatment are actually better in the U.S.A. because there
are more therapists and more programs in the U.S.A. In Canada, even though
you have universal access and universal coverage, in actual practical
reality, you can't get the treatment. You have theoretical universal
coverage for MPD and trauma related disorders, but you don't have the real
practical coverage in reality. The paradox is that in the U.S.A., the higher
percentage of people who could benefit from psychotherapy from all kinds of
problems resulting from their childhoods who can actually get therapy is
higher in the U.S.A. 

W.M.  In your previous lecture, you did go into a lot of detail outlining
the history of mind control. What is the link between MPD and mind control
experimentation?

C.R. How I got into this was sort of a back-door route. I didn't really have
any interest in the CIA or the military or mind control research or all of
that particularly when I left Canada. Hadn't read about it, hadn't really
heard any other doctors talking about it, hadn't heard any patients talking
about it. Pretty soon, after arriving in Texas in 1992, MPD patients started
talking about strange experiences that I didn't know what to make of ... it
involved either going into hospitals, some sort of research setting on a
military base, and having different kinds of experiments done on them which
involved EEG machines or some kind of scientific equipment, sensory
deprivation, and maybe physical spinning, maybe hallucinogens. And it wasn't
any kind of cult or obviously wasn't just their parents or something going
on in their family and initially I thought it was just too much to believe.
Then I decided I should at least look into it a little bit, and I started
basically in early 1992 doing a little bit of reading, and the more reading
I did ... what amazed me was that instead of coming to the conclusion that
"well this is not possible, there is no documentation of this stuff",
actually the more I read, the more documentation I got. All kinds of
absolutely unbelievable, bizarre and unethical and harmful mind control
research has been done, in Canada and in the U.S.A. since the Second World
War. And I have actually interviewed and spoken with a number of people who
have documented mind control research. Most of the patients that we hear
these kinds of things from get zero documentation that is actually real.
Though I kind of disconnected my research and my study about this from the
stories I was hearing from the patients, and did it as a separate research
project. What I have done over the past five years is talked to a lot of
other people in the field who are interested in this, read pretty much
everything that has been written on this, and under the Freedom of
Information Act I have somewhere in the ballpark of 6000-7000 pages of
documents from the CIA which I have reviewed. I have gone to the medical
school library, and I sent my secretary to five or six different places in
the U.S.A. ... go into archives and special collections in libraries and so
on ... and I have ended up now with probably more than two full four drawer
filing cabinets full of documentation on all kinds of things ... that is how
I got into this. And the connection with MPD for me personally was just that
my MPD patients were the ones who started me these kinds of stories and got
me interested in it.

W.M. From a therapist's point of view, how do you tell if somebody is giving
you an account of actual abuse or whether they are just fabricating something?

C.R. Well, basically, all the professional associations, including the
Canadian Psychiatric Association, who have made statements on this, and all
the scientific research, completely supports the conclusion that you can't
tell. And that goes both ways ...

W.M. You cannot tell?

C.R. You cannot tell just by listening to the patient's story ... you can't
tell that it is true. Also you can't tell that it is false. In other words
you can't tell without some sort of outside proof. That is proof that it
really happened, or proof that it didn't happen. What I have learned
especially in the last five years, there is really no limit to how detailed,
how compelling, how full of feeling ... how detailed a bunch of memories can
be and actually be totally real, or never have happened.  I have worked with
people who have had really elaborate memories of all kinds of things with
tremendous amounts of detail and then we have been able to prove it never
happened. You can't tell. And that's why I have tried to do this research
... separate it off from what the patients are telling me.

W.M. What similarities have you come across within the survivor accounts and
what you have discovered in the CIA documentation about
their mind control programs?

C.R. Well, basically, if you take a typically elaborate story that you will
hear from one of the MPD patients who has these kinds of memories, and you
break it down into the elements or components of the mind control techniques
that are described, I have been able to document every one with one or two
exceptions. All of this was carried out in a series of programs that really
began in the Second World War with what was called the O.S.S., the Office of
Strategic Services ...

W.M. The precursor to the CIA?

C.R. Yeah. It was set up after Pearl Harbour when it became obvious that
there was a huge problem with U.S.A. military intelligence gathering because
they were totally surprised by the Japanese ... and O.S.S. was set up in
1941 and at the end of the war it was disbanded and rolled over into the
C.I.A. which was created in September of 1947 through the National Security
Act with basically the same people who had been the O.S.S.  And the O.S.S.
did various kinds of drug research and mind control research, including
hallucinogens ... marijuana and sodium amytal and so on ... different types
of drugs. Also, they did experiments with hypnosis ... There is then a
little bit of a gap, and then in 1951, the C.I.A. started up two programs
called Artichoke and Bluebird which ran until about 1953 and rolled over
into MKULTRA which ran from 1953 to 1964. MKULTRA was rolled over into
MKSEARCH which ran until 1973, and then running concurrently with MKULTRA
and MKSEARCH roughly about ten other programs were declassified. There is a
little smattering of information on each of those. You have names like
MKNAOMI, QKHILLTOP, and MKDELTA ... by far the best known and the one I have
the most documents on are MKULTRA. It involved 149 different, separate
contracts at about eighty different institutions throughout Canada and the
U.S.A. In MKNAOMI, MKULTRA, and MKSEARCH, there are basically about three
major blocks or types of kinds of mind control research. About half the
projects in MKULTRA, for instance, were on a sort of procurement,
manufacture or supplying chemicals ... which are mostly hallucinogens,
sometimes biological warfare weapons such as bacteria or viruses, and
sometimes other kinds of chemicals for mind control research. So it was just
straight contracting to get the chemicals. An example of that would be, in
1953 one of the MKULTRA sub-projects was a $400,000 grant to Eli Lilly which
is the drug company that manufactures Prozac ... and that was for
manufacturing LSD. So the first major supplier of LSD in North America was
actually the Eli Lilly Drug Company.

W.M. And there's actually evidence that the C.I.A. was responsible for the
distribution of this throughout the U.S.A. and across North America?

C.R. Yes, they used it in actual experiments, and they also turned some of
it over to the military through the MKNAOMI program. A lot of the Army mind
control and drug research was done at the Edgeware Arsenal, which has been
in the news a lot recently because of a lot of sexual assault and rape of
female army personnel there, and it is linked to Fort Detrick and Aberdeen
Proving Ground in Maryland ... a little bit north of Washington, D.C.

W.M. Is this the same military base that the BBC documentary focused on
about them giving very powerful drugs to U.S. soldiers?

C.R. Yes. It was the major centre for all kinds of hallucinogen and other
drug research. The main one, or best known, is LSD, but actually the Army
released a list of about 130 compounds that it tested in mind control
research. That was released in 1975. There are at least 130 drugs or
compounds that they admit they were using on experimental subjects. They
admitted, in the mid-1970's, to testing LSD on at least 1500 subjects ... so
if you just do the arithmetic very roughly, they gave LSD to 1500 people,
and they tested 130 drugs ... that was just the Army ... and you figure
there are four branches of the military in the U.S.A. plus the C.I.A., you
are talking about a huge number of people ... potentially hundreds of
thousands of people who got at least one dose of an experimental mind
control drug, usually without any kind of adequate informed consent at all.

W.M. Who typically would these people be? Where were they drawing their
subjects from?

C.R. Actually, I would just like to pop back to talking about Eli Lilly for
a second just to finish off that part of the story, then I will answer that
question.  LSD was discovered accidentally in 1943 by a man named Albert
Hoffman, working at Sandoz Pharmaceuticals in Switzerland, which is a drug
company. What happened was that in the late 40's, early 50's a rumour
developed that the Russians might buy up or try to buy up the entire world
supply of LSD. That is why the C.I.A. decided to contract with the drug
company in the U.S.A. which manufactures Prozac, which is Eli Lilly ... so
they could have a secure North American supply. One of the things that
amazed me, absolutely the most, doing this research was to find out who the
original acidheads were in North America because you would assume it would
be beatniks or criminals or musicians or somebody or other ... turns out
that the original acidheads in North America were actually the
psychiatrists, and the C.I.A. and the military personnel. In conferences
that were actually sponsored by the C.I.A., I found, in books, dozens of
these psychiatrists who were some of the major drug researchers and major
psychiatrists in the second half of the 20th Century ... all describing acid
trips they were on, how much they enjoyed them, how useful they thought they
were, and describing using LSD to treat all different kinds of things from
alcoholism to anxiety to homosexuality which they considered to be a
disease. So they were, themselves, turning each other on and then they were
using all different kinds of subjects. The majority would be psychiatric
patients who were already in treatment; army personnel; prisoners in several
different prisons in the U.S.A.; or in one project which was in MKULTRA,
they actually had prostitutes that they hired through MKULTRA and they set
up safe houses in San Francisco and New York, and the prostitutes would go
out on the streets and recruit people for tricks. The CIA people would watch
the tricks through one way mirrors, monitor the sex, and the prostitutes
would slip the johns LSD and other hallucinogens, and these people were
totally unaware that they were involved in any kind of government
experiment, totally unaware that they were going to get LSD at all, gave no
consent whatsoever. So most of the time the subjects were somebody who was
one notch down in the power set-up ... they
were either an employee of the institution where the doctor was doing the
research, they were a patient, they were somebody in the military who was
loosely seen as a volunteer but they really didn't have much choice, or they
were a prisoner. Usually they were somebody who was under the control of the
administration, under the control of the doctor somehow to some extent.

W.M.  Specifically, what prisons were involved in the mind control experiments?

C.R. One of the prisons was the New Jersey Reformatory at Bordentown (which
is in Pennsylvania). The investigator there was Carl Feiffer who had a lot
of MKULTRA and MKSEARCH money. Besides being at the New Jersey Psychiatric
Research Institute, which is where he did the work at Bordentown, he was
also the Chairman of the Department of Pharmacology at one of the major
universities in Atlanta ... Emory University. While he was there, he
conducted LSD experiments on the people in the Atlanta Penitentiary. There
was a narcotics farm in Lexington, Kentucky which was a prison. It was
mainly for drug related offenders. One of the more sinister ones was
Vacaville State Prison in California. Vacaville State Prison was an MKSEARCH
site where they did drug research related to the drug, Pemoline whose trade
name is Silert. It is used for Attention Deficit Disorder in kids. They were
using it to study memory enhancement drugs. That was at the same time that
Donald DeFreeze was an inmate at Vacaville. Donald DeFreeze was the head of
the Liberation Army that captured Patty Hearst. At the same time there was
drug research going on at the New Jersey Reformatory in Bordentown, a man
was in prison there whose name was Louis Castille, and he was later arrested
in the Phillipines on suspicion of planning to assassinate President Marcos,
and he exhibited five distinct personalities during forty different
interviews conducted by the Phillipines FBI. There was consultation from the
Phillipines FBI to the American FBI in that case. Also, because he alleged
he was involved in the Kennedy assassination, there was a consultation with
Gerald Ford who was on the Warren Commission. All of this is tied into all
kinds of aspects throughout the second half of the 20th Century. A very,
very twisted, convoluted history. People who were expert witnesses for Patty
Hearst, who were saying that she had been captured by the Symbionese
Liberation Army and brainwashed by them using the techniques of destructive
cults were similar to the techniques of the CIA and military mind control.
Those witnesses included Robert Lifton, Margaret Singer, Martin Orne and a
psychiatrist named Joly West. Martin Orne and Joly West were top secret
clearance for MKULTRA money. The funny thing about Patty Hearst is that her
new identity named "Tania" had been created using brainwashing techniques,
and Patty Hearst
identified herself as "Tania" when she robbed a bank. She was convicted and
found guilty, and actually sent to jail for that. The experts in a lot of
the CIA mind control programming were very aware of the possibility of
creating an artificial multiple personality through mind control techniques,
and they testified that this had been done by this character, Donald
DeFreeze, who was a black criminal and petty thief. There are several
strange twists in that story. One of the strange twists, which is somewhat
documented, but not completely documented, is that according to several
different sources, including Patty Hearst's authobiography as well, Colston
Westbrook was an employee of the CIA and psychological expert during the
Vietnam War. He came back and got a teaching position at the University of
Berkeley as a language instructor, and then he entered Vacaville Prison
under the cover of the Black Cultural Association, which was a black
prisoners/inmates' association, and he used mind control techniques on
Donald DeFreeze and actually gave him his code name of Cinque, and designed
the seven headed cobra logo/symbol of the Symbionese Liberation Army. Then
Donald DeFreeze was transferred from maximum security in this facility
(Vacaville) to a low security facility from which he immediately escaped and
several months after that he captured Patty Hearst and used fairly
sophisticated mind control techniques on her and created a Manchurian
Candidate second identity in her named "Tania".

W.M.  So, unless this is all highly coincidental, then what you are saying
is that the SLA was a CIA creation.

C.R.  I don't know for a documented fact that it's true, but that is what
these several different books are alleging, and they are fairly detailed and
I am trying to research up on that. But it is absolutely known for a fact
that these two doctors, Dr. West and Dr. Orne, had extensive funding from
all branches of military intelligence from the CIA and had top secret
clearance, and they described the process in a lot of detail by which this
artificial multiple personality was created in Patty Hearst. So that's just
not my opinion and my theory, that's their opinion and their theory which
they testified to in court. Not so much Joly West, but Martin Orne is tied
in to a man named G.H. Estabrooks who was one of probably the top ten
leading experts on hypnosis in the 20th Century ... Martin Orne would
probably be in the top handful ... G.H. Estabrooks was actually a Canadian
by birth, he was a Rhodes Scholar, moved into Upper State New York, and
basically spent his professional career in New York at a little college
called Colgate College in Hamilton, New York which is not too far from
Buffalo. And he published starting in 1943 and going all the way up to 1971
... very very detailed accounts of creating Multiple Personalities during
WWII for various branches of the U.S.A. military. Basically, he called these
people Multiple Personalities. He talked about the Multiple Personality
literature, and he referred to them as super-spies. The idea is that you
create somebody artificially, using hypnosis and other mind control
techniques who had no multiple personality before, but now has this second
identity. And the second identity is hidden behind a memory barrier, an
amnesia barrier, and there is a verbal access code that is used to call out
the second identity. So, say this person is a Marine, they will be given
some kind of courier assignment to take some documents to ie. Tokyo, but
G.H. Estabrooks then calls out the second personality and sticks in some
classified information into this second personality. Then there is a
switch-back to the main identity, and the person is just going on this
routine trip to take documents or technical material over to Tokyo. When he
gets to the far end, he uses the example of a Col. Brown who then uses the
code signal,
and the example he uses in the description is, "The moon is clear."  As soon
as Col. Brown says "The moon is clear", the second identity pops out, gives
the classified message. Col. Brown inserts a classified response, then the
person pops back to their regular identity, goes back to the States and
thinks they have just gone on a routine assignment. But Estabrooks again
says "The moon is clear", the identity pops out, and Estabrooks gets the
classified message. He describes using these people in classified courier
missions for actual operations, extensively many times during WWII.

W.M.  So this is in George Estabrooks's own documentation that he is
describing this?

C.R.  Right. And he also describes using them for infiltration operations.
His idea there is to take somebody who is a loyal, patriotic Marine, and
create in him a new identity, of a Communist, and you submerge the previous
identity of the patriotic Marine. Now this person who is a created really
diehard Communist, goes and infiltrates cells or political organizations and
does whatever spy work is required.  The idea is that if one of these
couriers, or infiltration agents is captured and interrogated, they actually
have no idea that they are spies. They generally think they are just on a
regular mission, or they generally believe they are Communist, so they can't
be interrogated and they can't be made to reveal information so easily. So
of course they go in and do whatever infiltration operation is required, and
then they come back and they are debriefed by Estabrooks who knows how to
get through to the original personality. Some of these people, according to
Estabrooks, were actually given dishonorable discharges as part of their
cover.  One question about that is ... is Estabrooks just telling tall tales?
I have been able to build up a lot of documentation about him, and his
personal archives are still housed at this Colgate College. I photocopied
probably a pile of paper at least a foot deep.

W.M.  And what did those documents reveal to you?

C.R.  Well, it's all his personal papers, correspondence, background. So I
have original documents now photocopies showing that he was employed by the
War Department during WWII. He marketed his ideas to every branch of
Military Intelligence in the U.S.A. There is tons of correspondence with him
and all kinds of Navy, Army, Air Force intelligence people. He did a lot of
training at Fort Holobird (?) and other locations. One of the most
interesting things about him was that he corresponded pretty regularly with
J. Edgar Hoover from the 1930's through to the 1960's. There is a lot of
correspondence with Hoover and there were a lot of FBI personnel who came
out and visited him and attended his different teachings, and a lot of these
people talk about reading his book which came out in 1943, "Hypnotism".  In
this textbook, he describes these artificial multiple personalities in a lot
of detail.  I have good documentation that the CIA in Bluebird and Artichoke
did pretty much the same experiments. They describe several different
things. They don't describe actual operations, but they describe real-life
simulations where they are testing these people. They describe the same
things that Estabrooks is talking about where they hypnotize somebody,
condition a second personality that can stand up to a lie detector test.
Also they describe having amnesia barriers and having people go on
assignments where they go to another building and rifle through some
materials, take some documents and bring them back, and then have no memory
of doing this whatsoever. In MKULTRA there was a contractor named Alden
Sears who did experiments at the University of Minnesota and the University
of Denver which were very similar and there is a lot of documentation of him
procuring CIA safe houses for some of his experiments and doing
demonstrations with some of these techniques for military and CIA personnel,
and creating hypnotic couriers, and so on. So there are several sets of
documents that back up that this was done at an experimental level by the
CIA successfully. But I don't have documents about their use in operations.

W.M.  You mentioned that there are three areas of interest in the mind
control experimentation. I wonder if you could just review those again? You
mentioned drugs.